Negotiating your salary can feel like stepping into uncharted territory, but it’s one of the most impactful career moves you can make. KL Shaw, a LinkedIn Top Voice, fractional Chief People Officer, and founder of The Salary Bump, recently shared her expertise on salary negotiation in a podcast with Recruiting Insider. Her mission is simple yet profound: to empower professionals to secure a salary and career that respect their true value. Here’s what we learned from her about mastering the art of negotiation.
KL’s journey to becoming a salary negotiation coach began with her time in HR, where she saw firsthand how much employees left on the table. She confessed to making the same mistakes early in her career. “I didn’t know I could negotiate,” she admitted, explaining how she settled for less because she feared discussing money might make her seem less committed to her role. Over time, she realized the importance of advocating for her worth and has since helped countless others do the same.
One of the first things KL highlights is the importance of knowing what you can negotiate. Salary is just the tip of the iceberg; benefits, bonuses, PTO, and professional development are all levers you can pull. She shared a compelling example of a client who negotiated not only a raise but also a custom bonus structure, additional PTO, and even a company car. These creative solutions reflect how much more there is to compensation than just the paycheck.
Preparation is key to any successful negotiation. KL emphasized the importance of doing your homework to understand the market value of your role. Tools like ChatGPT’s salary navigator, Glassdoor, and Payscale can help you identify salary ranges for your position and location. She advises clients to always present a salary range rather than a single figure, with the bottom number being one you’re happy with and the top being your dream amount.
Confidence is another critical component. KL suggests exploring your relationship with money, as limiting beliefs can hold you back. For instance, many people, especially women and people of color, feel they should simply be grateful for an offer rather than push for more. By reframing these beliefs and practicing negotiation conversations, you can enter discussions with clarity and self-assurance.
Timing and strategy also play a huge role. When negotiating with your current employer, KL advises setting the stage for success by choosing the right time—perhaps after a significant achievement or when your boss is most receptive. Instead of leading with frustration or comparisons to colleagues, focus on your value and frame the conversation around growth, both for you and the company.
Even with preparation, you might face pushback. KL recommends staying curious in these situations. Ask clarifying questions like, “Is this a no for now or a no forever?” This can open the door to alternative benefits or future salary discussions. If the company isn’t open to negotiation, it’s also a chance to assess whether it’s the right place for your long-term career.
KL also emphasized the importance of practicing your negotiation skills. Recording yourself and reviewing your body language can help you refine your approach. It’s not just about what you say but how you say it. Confidence and professionalism can leave a lasting impression, even if you don’t get everything you ask for.
For those actively job searching, KL stresses the importance of leveraging LinkedIn and maintaining a strong personal brand. Posting thought leadership content and engaging with your network can make you more visible to recruiters and hiring managers. It’s a proactive way to increase your value and opportunities.
In closing, KL shared her top three tips for negotiating tomorrow: do your homework, practice your delivery, and focus on creating a win-win outcome. She reminded listeners that if you’ve been offered a job, the employer already wants you, and negotiating is simply the next step in building a mutually beneficial relationship.
Whether you’re preparing for your next role or seeking a raise in your current one, KL’s insights remind us that negotiation isn’t just about asking for more—it’s about knowing your worth and advocating for it confidently and strategically. By normalizing these conversations and breaking down barriers, we can all take a step closer to fair and rewarding compensation.
Watch and listen here. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review!! ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐ ⭐
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2cgTr1yKELHaIcIRhXjpuS
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fIW7SAlCxs&list=PLr1RB0ygkFCYEjdoc7F-Pr_aY9JZnM5b_&index=2
Transcript:
Mary (00:01.156)
Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast. You guys are going to love the topic this week. It’s a doozy and you know, I promise that it can help every single one of you out there. Keri-Lynne Shaw is here with us today to discuss how to negotiate 30 to 50 % more in compensation. Keri-Lynne, welcome to Recruiting Insider.
KL (00:30.446)
Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here. It’s a big promise that you’re making to your listeners. I will… Yeah, no, I… What I could promise is that you will take something away from this conversation that will either bring you confidence or help you to navigate this weird world of…
Mary (00:34.595)
We’ll break that down a little bit.
KL (00:55.694)
uncertainty where the market is today and uncertainty in knowing what you can and can’t do or say when it comes to salary negotiations. So I can absolutely promise that you will take at least something away. Not everybody is in a position to be looking for a new job or looking for a raise, but if that is the case, then I can.
pretty much assure you that some of the tips and tools are working with me would get you significantly more than you were offered or you are paid today.
Mary (01:27.2)
Yes, I love it. KL is a LinkedIn top voice, a fractional chief people officer, and the founder of the salary bump. So really you can think of her as your career growth hacker, like she says on LinkedIn. And really her mission is simple, right? To show you that you have a rewarding career and a salary that actually respects your value. So Keri-Lynne, to kind of think.
To kick things off here, I’d love to learn a little more about your background and what really sparked your passion for helping people negotiate higher salaries.
KL (02:03.022)
So I would say my time in HR was probably the most transformational when it came to me finding my purpose. I sold cars to pay for college. I was in sales and marketing, which by the way, I think everyone should do a sales gig in their career, whatever stage it is, anything to do with clients and customer and navigating difficult situations. I actually ran customer care for BMW and had five death threats during my tenure.
Mary (02:17.118)
Mm.
KL (02:32.928)
as the leader, it was bananas. And customers are very, very passionate about their cars. So having the ability to navigate when bombs are dropping and tough situations, I think that put some hair on my chest and was for sure my foundation. And then I fell into HR. It was an accident. I really didn’t know how to spell it. And I would say that early in my career, the HR that I had been exposed to was not very much.
modern and not very progressive.
I wanted to do it differently and created a much different approach where it was not back office, it was really employee led, people led, talent led, everything that we did was about employee engagement and retention and how do we help people unlock their potential. So fast forward, I recognized that that was my purpose, was helping people unlock their potential. And in HR, when I started the salary bump, one of the reasons for
for it was I want to blow off the doors of HR because it’s this a bit of a I wouldn’t say a black hole but a lot of people if your HR is not out there and engaged with you you don’t know what you can what you can’t you don’t know what HR is thinking the fact that I’ve done it for about a decade I saw people do it really well when it comes to negotiation and interviewing and I saw people do it really poorly and more on the poorly side so throughout my
Mary (03:51.001)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
KL (04:07.155)
I negotiated terribly. I didn’t know how. I didn’t know I could. I didn’t know what I was worth and I didn’t know how. And I was also really nervous that if I was talking about money that they might think that I wasn’t as interested in the job and money is not my number one driver. So what I recognized when I got into HR and I saw the vast salary ranges, I saw how much I was leaving on the table and I
Mary (04:34.614)
Mmm.
KL (04:35.872)
started to think, hmm, why can’t I have all the things I value and the money to go with it? And so hence the salary bump was born and we’re changing the game and we’re normalizing the conversation and it’s been so incredible to just expose people to what
Mary (04:48.087)
Mmm.
KL (04:57.134)
what HR with the person on the other end is thinking and to give them a little bit more confidence to walk in and confidently say this is what they’re worth and confidently know that they should know their value and that there’s a whole plethora of things to negotiate beyond just salary. It’s called the salary bump because I thought it was catchy, but it’s actually your whole comp package which most people don’t actually consider when they outline and list out what they make.
Mary (05:18.164)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (05:27.635)
Yeah, I know when I was first entering the job market, I had no idea that I could negotiate anything other than a salary. You know, when I was offered my first full -time salary out of graduate school, it was lower than what I was offered when I was coming out of undergraduate. And I was like, you know, kind of scattering about to try to figure out, okay, how do I ask for a higher salary? Do I even ask for a higher salary?
You know, to me, it was a company that was really, it was an organization that was really coveted. So it’s like, if I don’t get the offer, somebody else will probably take this super low ball offer. You know, if I say no to it, or if they say no to my salary negotiation. So there’s a little bit of a fear that’s attached to that. And I’m really curious too, Keri-Lynne, because I know that you mentioned that you really
messed up that first salary negotiation and I’m sure a lot of people can really relate to that, you know, and if they’ve ever negotiated a salary they probably feel like they didn’t do it to the best of their ability. Can you talk to us a little bit more about your experience and what you mean when you said that you really messed that first one up?
KL (06:43.598)
Yeah, not first one much of my career. I would say sadly, I just again, I didn’t recognize what I knew that I was doing great work because within companies I stayed five years with one company, 12 years with another in my early days.
And I knew I was doing good work because people wanted me on their projects. They would call me to say, Kale, we want you on this team or we want to promote you. I just was so hungry for making an impact and learning and growing that I just didn’t ask. So the flip for me was when I started to see all these other people doing it really well, I thought, okay, so that felt really good or that felt gross, that felt egotistical, that felt
That felt rude, that felt, ooh so smart, they took the emotion out of it. Or, wow, that person came and confidently put on the table that they’re talking with other organizations or recruiters and this is what the range is. Like, let’s talk ranges instead of dollar amounts. let’s talk about all the other benefits outside of that.
It was a combo between seeing these people do it well and because so many people did it badly and wrong, it was really easy to put together this framework that, okay, and the fact that there’s this huge niche that the percentages are so grossly low of people who are negotiating, less for women and less for people of color. So there was this opportunity to actually really change the world and that’s what
what was so exciting about it for me. So in doing it wrong, it was really simple. I didn’t know I could, so I didn’t talk about it. One time I did and I got turned down because they said there’s no opportunity for a bump and this was a job move at the same level within my company. So I said, okay, well, what else is there? So I said, listen, PTO is really important to me. My family lives in Western Canada and in Germany, so.
KL (08:50.894)
when we go away, we go for a little bit longer. And PTO was like gold to me. And so I said, well, would you be open to increase the PTO? And my boss said, I can’t because of where you are. And it was a very structured approach. We can’t give you more than other people at your level. But.
Let’s do good work and let’s talk. End of the year, fast forward, I had moved out of a house to do a renovation and was moving back in. It was in between Christmas and New Year’s. I had no vacation left and he knew I was moving back into my house. I had to redo everything. It was like a full reno. Everything was in storage. And he’s like, take the week off on me.
Mary (09:26.799)
No, jeez.
KL (09:31.086)
thank you for everything you do. And I thought, wow, okay, so here was a leader that followed through, that was such a beautiful surprise, and he customized it to me because he knew that that was important to me. So I would say in that particular situation, it still felt like a win even though I was turned down, but…
Mary (09:31.119)
Wow.
KL (09:49.134)
There’s this art in how you have this conversation. And so fast forward, twice in my career I’ve been able to double my salary. Once, moving from one company to another, which by the way, Forbes noted this I think last year, if you job jump you will earn 55 % more than people who stay loyal. So this was an opportunity that…
Mary (10:10.34)
Mm. Wow.
KL (10:15.086)
I really took seriously. It was the very first time where I was like, I’m going all in. And it was a magnificent experience because again, I used my blueprint. And then I doubled my salary once in an existing role. And this is where it’s interesting. So I think a lot of people, when they think about salary increase, they think about it when they’re looking for a new job. I have created something though that people are often
disengaged and unhappy or leave companies because they don’t feel valued and a lot of the reason they leave is because there’s no transparency around their pay, there’s no transparency around how they grow, where they stand, what the next level looks like, all that. And so this was such an opportunity that I thought more people need to know that they can ask for a bump in their existing role and
It was a really specific situation that I was in where I was so grossly underpaid compared to the other people that were on the exec team. The CEO knew that and had conversations and it just like went on and on and on. I got frustrated and said, I need to do something about it and take action. I got three sentences out and he doubled my salary on the spot, which at that point I was making more than the CFO, which is very unusual that a chief people officer would make more than anyone else on the exec team.
But that was like, yeah, this works. I want this thing. And when I decided to create this company, which was an accident also, I was super intentional about, okay, what worked in those situations. And so yeah, so I help a lot of clients who are also frustrated because they don’t feel valued.
Mary (11:46.404)
Yeah.
Mary (12:03.519)
Yeah, I’m really curious about some of your coaching programs and the one -on -one coaching that you do provide surrounding salary negotiation. And I mean, you help clients uncover, I mean, really the secrets of negotiating, right? And learning that nuanced art of really using all of these levers, like you said, and some of the full compensation packages. So let’s just…
unpack that just a little bit. Can you give us a way give away some of your your secrets and which lever should we be pulling?
KL (12:38.958)
Such a big question. So let’s just, let’s say this.
From a one -on -one perspective, my clients come to me all at different stages. So I think the biggest aha for them is the understanding of what they can negotiate. Because when you think about negotiation, you think about your salary. So what has been very interesting is a lot of clients will sign up to, I take discovery calls every day, they’ll sign up for a discovery call and by the time in between when they set up the meeting,
we actually meet. It happened three times last week. Three people told me, interesting timing, I just got laid off. So what we’ve been doing now is a double negotiation. A negotiation on the one side of what’s the severance, did you get an offer, and let’s talk about how to get you more. And in those three cases, all three of them, we more than doubled their severance offer.
So there’s that aspect which is again, most people don’t know or people who are really unhappy in their roles and they’re in this in or in a toxic environment or just like really want to do something different and more, we proactively ask for packages because companies are so…
cost conscious right now and that’s a polite way to say it’s a banana market. Most of my clients are shocked that they could proactively ask and in every case when we’ve done it they’ve said yes because they were going to have to reorg anyway or they were in a process of a reorg or the person was going to get reorg out. Now they’ve just saved themselves the heartache of having to break someone’s heart. In every case they’ve said yes. So I mean obviously there’s no guarantee in that but
Mary (14:08.536)
Yeah.
KL (14:28.336)
The severance package is something that I think a lot of people don’t recognize as a lever that they can pull, giving them then runway to get them to their next opportunity or of course if they were laid off and that’s the story that I just described. But the lever of that and then all the levers beyond salary and I would also say what they’re also surprised about is how to even do the homework on
what the market value is and what they’re worth. And so we dig in on that. I do that research with different AI tools. They’re available for anybody to do. But we establish for them a range that is both comfortable for them based on the market, based on the role, based on city, state, country, and based on what
where they currently are and just like to give them they have to feel comfortable with the range that they’re giving and I always encourage the range the bottom end of the range that you use is the number you’d be very happy with the top end of the range you use that you provide to them is your dream number
because if you get an offer on the low end of your range, you don’t want to put back yourself into a corner. And then the goal with putting a range out there is to get you to the mid to high end.
Mary (15:39.064)
Yeah.
KL (15:45.422)
And so I think that people don’t know they should talk ranges, not numbers. People don’t know that they shouldn’t share their existing salary if someone asks you. Shame if they do, they should not be. It’s definitely illegal in eight states. But you shouldn’t, you don’t have to answer the question if someone asks what you currently make. You can say my salary expectations are between boom and boom based on my research and roles that I’m interviewing for. You don’t have to say, well, my actual salary is X.
Mary (15:59.544)
Mm -hmm.
KL (16:15.376)
And then when you’re asked that question and you are putting together your thoughts how to answer it, you always say, listen, this is the range that I’ve researched, but obviously there’s much more beyond salary from a benefit standpoint. So curious what you’ve budgeted for the role and let’s talk about the ancillary benefits and how that all fits into the total comp package. Couple reasons why that’s important.
One, you set the stage with them that you’re going to be talking about all these ancillary benefits and two, it just doesn’t back you into a corner from a salary, only talking about salaries. So it’s something that most clients don’t recognize and realize and sets the stage for when we get to the actual negotiation.
Mary (17:04.536)
Yeah, I think there are a lot of people on the market right now that are just super excited to get that job offer. So salary negotiation is kind of the last thing on their mind. Like you said, they don’t even realize that they can negotiate their salary.
How can you help them advocate for their self -worth?
KL (17:28.814)
So part of it is the homework and when we start, when I start a client engagement, we get grounded to their relationship with money. So a lot of us have limiting beliefs around money. Money doesn’t grow on trees. Therefore I have to work so hard to earn it and I’m fresh out of college. I haven’t got a job yet. How could I negotiate?
filthy rich statements like this or how you grew up. Did you grow up?
under the poverty line did you grow up with a scarcity mindset, your relationship to money is actually what is an important place for us to start. So once we understand that, it’s really helpful because then we can break through reframing to have a different relationship to when we think about money and greed. And I think that’s the best place that I have found with my clients that we start. Then we move into
homework piece. So when you walk into something not knowing, having not done your homework, makes it a little more difficult for you to be confident about it. So we ground ourselves to as many facts as we possibly can, which is a confidence builder. So now we’ve got a new relationship to money, now we’ve got a new homework that we’ve done, and then the prep for the interview piece. So don’t underestimate, we won’t get to the negotiation if you haven’t done your elevator
and that you’ve practiced and studied the companies. So there’s a lot of work we do around that as well. And then planting the right seeds, round money, because those questions come up sometimes early in the conversations, not just at the end, so that we are paving the way for the right conversation at the end.
KL (19:20.078)
Those are the really critical factors that give people the confidence to be able to talk. So it’s also practice, be in front of a mirror, practice how you will negotiate, practice what you will say, do it with your phone. A lot of my clients will record themselves and go back and look, send it to me for feedback. So that’s another way for you to prepare. What is my body language when I talk about money? What is, you know, do I?
Mary (19:42.968)
Yeah.
KL (19:47.886)
you know, do I, you know, move, do I close my eyes, do I, like there’s all sorts of things we do that it helps from an awareness perspective. And so all of those factors just help you walk in and be like, okay, well, I’ve done everything I can to prepare. And the last thing I would say is creating a win -win is important. So just think about this, Mary. If somebody has made you a job offer, they want you.
Mary (20:16.184)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
KL (20:17.038)
and you want them. So you could even say, listen, I’m thrilled to have this opportunity and this has been such a great process. So thank you so much and thank you for the offer.
Obviously, the ultimate goal is that we create a win -win so we both feel valued here. So let’s talk about what that looks like and what feeling valued looks like for me and for you. I think the other thing is, people, when you think negotiation, you think about maybe attorneys, you think about a courtroom, you think about there’s a winner and there’s a loser.
And in salary negotiation, it is not that way because really, they are telling you they want you. And I’ll say one last thing, which is every person on the other end, every person.
is expecting you to negotiate. So it’s not like those doors are shut and you have to pound them down. The door’s wide open for you to walk through it. And I know this is more of a rare case, but I did a podcast with a recruiter who said that she was, she places C -suite execs and she said she once had a CFO who was made a job offer and they pulled the job offer from the person because they didn’t negotiate.
Mary (21:24.184)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (21:33.944)
Mmm.
KL (21:34.128)
Why that’s so important is if you think about what roles in a company where would negotiation actually be important, CFO would be one of them. Anytime you have vendor relations. So it also comes across, like it shows your confidence and you want to set that stage so your company is like, wow, that was Bull’s move and I really love how he or she showed up. So those are my top tips.
Mary (21:42.84)
Mmm.
Mary (22:02.84)
Yeah, I mean, I love that because, you know, like you said, it’s a negotiation when it comes to negotiating your salary. There definitely don’t need to be a one winner and one loser, you know.
I had a thought that was going with that and now I’m probably going to edit that part out. I’m going to start that over. When it comes to salary negotiation, there definitely doesn’t need to be one winner and one loser. It’s one of those things where you can chat with your potential employer and figure out a situation that works best both for you and for them. And I think that that’s so important to go in with that mindset to just know that
Okay, if I can get maybe a little bit more, if I can’t get some more money, maybe I can get some more PTO time or something else, some sort of a benefit that could really affect my life in a positive way. And in turn, that’s going to make me want to work a lot harder for my employer. And they probably know that too, right? And they want to hire you. So they want to make you happy so that you stay there for a really long time. So I think that that’s an incredibly important mindset to go into.
KL (23:17.454)
I would layer onto that and say, you’re not going to get everything you want in every negotiation. It may or may not happen, right? So, but if it’s something you really want, this is a really incredible opportunity, it’s a growth opportunity, it’s everything that you dreamed of, you can say, okay listen, you’re not quite meeting me where I want to be from a salary standpoint. Appreciate that you’ve pushed it as far as possible.
And we’ve looked at all the other ancillary things, personal development, coaching, my chief membership, millions of different things, and we still haven’t quite got there. Let’s talk about what my financial growth will look like inside the organization and when we can revisit this.
So you’re planting the seed for you to move into that conversation later. And the one lever that I always recommend my clients pull is if all of those other things don’t quite add up, a sign -on bonus is another way to help them add up.
and you can close the gap that way or if you’ve left a bonus on the table depending on what time of year you’re leaving your company. These are all highly relevant things that most companies will consider because it comes out of a different P &L item in a sense, right? So the personnel budget is the biggest budget on the P &L.
you know, they have to make sure that they’re treating employees fairly. So, you know, if you’re coming in, Mary, and you want 300 ,000 and everyone else on the team at that level is not more than 250, well, we have a gap and we’re not going to give Mary, you’re not going to give you to 300 because we have to make sure we have equity. But have that conversation, have the transparent conversation. Maybe there’s something different with the role. Maybe there’s something different with the title. Perhaps it’s a step in.
KL (25:14.64)
role that is going to grow within the first year, like get those commitments down on paper so you know both where you’re going financially and from a career perspective.
Mary (25:24.181)
Yeah, I love that. And, you know, we already kind of brushed on the fact that negotiation isn’t just about the salary. So what other aspects of a compensation package should our listeners be considering?
KL (25:40.974)
So I will tell you, I’ll give you an example of someone that I worked with. He was an automotive technician who got his master’s certification, which is a really big coup if you are in that industry. Technicians.
I believe last I checked the turnover rates were more than 50%. It’s very hard for dealers to keep technicians. So he got a certification. He loved the dealership he worked for, loved them, and came to me and said, Kale, I want to be able to approach them in a really thoughtful way about what’s next for me.
So they knew he had just got his certification. We mapped out this beautiful plan, which included a raise and he was an hourly worker. So we got, you know, we suggested ranges based on the market for his hourly. We suggested, or co -created a custom bonus program.
that was related to his output. So he’s like, yeah, I’m going for it. Like I am hungry, so I’m okay. I want my bonus to be higher, but I’m okay to work a little bit for that. So we co -created this custom bonus structure where his current bonus was a little bit higher because now he’s a master, and then we co -created different levels. Super cool.
He works in a dealership. So guess what? They have lots of company cars available. So we got them to also give him a car, insurance, and gas, which saved $1 ,700 a month out of pocket for him because he didn’t have to have his car payment, insurance payment, gas payment. And then we had them throw in medical coverage, paying for the medical coverage for him and his wife.
Mary (27:33.006)
Mmm.
KL (27:33.742)
So a super creative way that, and we got him 10 additional PTO days, which is money in his pocket as an hourly worker, that’s absolute money in your pocket. So everything is on the table. I mentioned earlier, chief membership. I mentioned sign -on bonus. I mentioned growth and development. A lot of my clients actually get their…
work that they do with me paid for by their company because they ask for personal development and ask for a professional coach. So I’m a professional coach and we invoice the company. So that’s also just something to think about like grounding yourself to what’s important to you. And I’m a learner. I’m like constantly thinking about how can I grow.
Mary (28:13.547)
Well.
KL (28:24.622)
I just hired myself two coaches, a personal coach, a business coach. Like I’m really also a hormone coach to figure out menopause. So there’s, you know, there’s expertise out there and I am hungry for it. So that’s something important to me. And when I decided to become a professional coach, it was 12 or $15 ,000. I just went to my company and said, would you pay for it? It’s going to bring this value to the company. And,
Mary (28:28.427)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
KL (28:52.014)
No brainer. So these are all customizable ways for you to have conversations based on what’s important to you. And the one last thing I’m going to add on negotiation that is really important to think about, especially in this market, depending on your level, so I would say it’s more relative and director level and above, talk about having severance included in your offer letter so that because the market is a bit volatile, if they in fact…
terminate you, you have some protection. Three months -ish is the number around director level. VP is three to six months and for C -suite six to 12. It’s sort of the numbers that I’ve used in HR and the numbers that feel reasonable. And they may say no, and that’s okay, but putting that on the table just gives you a little protection.
Mary (29:43.685)
Yeah. So what are some common mistakes that people make during negotiations and how can they avoid them?
KL (29:53.221)
Well, they let emotion get in the way. So it’s really important that you come in fact -based. I think some people have the wrong conversation. So let’s say I’m inside my organization and I am really frustrated because Mary is sitting next to me and I just found out that Mary is making…
$30 ,000 more than me. Because we’re normalizing this conversation now, right? We may or may not have salary transparency and comp philosophies inside our companies. So until that happens, you’re pissed. You’re frustrated that Mary’s making $25 ,000 more than me or $30 ,000 more than me. And by the way, I have more experience than Mary. Like, who is Mary? Now I’m pissed at Mary and I’m pissed at my boss, at my company, because you’ve done me wrong.
Mary (30:40.164)
Yeah.
KL (30:45.582)
So they’re coming at it in those kinds of cases with the wrong approach. So you would never walk into your boss’s office and say, Mary’s making $30 ,000 more than me. I’m frustrated. What you do instead is you say, hey, listen, time that conversation very, very strategically, just wrapping up after a phenomenal project, super positive feedback.
something, you time it around when your boss has the most energy. Are they morning people, evening people? Do they let their hair down, their guard down a little more in the evening? You time that conversation really thoughtfully and you say, hey listen, I am loving this path that we’re on and thank you so much for the positive feedback. Things really are going in the right direction. I’d love your support on how can I continue to grow.
in the company, both from a career navigation and also a financial perspective. I’d love your advice to help us figure out how do I get there. Here’s some thoughts I’m having. I want to take on more leadership opportunities. I’ve done some homework on my role in the market, and the range is quite a bit higher than where I am today. And I would love your advice on how can we get me there.
So it’s not, you’re not coming in guns a blazing and ready for a fight. You’re actually having them like, yeah, I’m going to help you get there. It’s, it’s a totally different conversation. Guards are down. It is their job, by the way, to help guide you. And hopefully they’re doing this proactively, but most are not. So set the stage for that to be a beautiful conversation. If I come in and I say, yeah, well, I just bought a house and I’m like, I need you to.
give me a bump because I got a mortgage to pay now or I’m having a kid and there’s no way I can afford having a kid on this salary. Not the things your manager cares about, not their problem. So think about it strategically. So I would say that’s the biggest mistake because if you make that mistake, it’s hard to come back from it. It’s really hard to then revisit that conversation if you messed up the foundation of it.
Mary (32:53.924)
Yeah.
Mary (33:01.028)
What if somebody nails that conversation, whether it’s, you know, it’s in an initial, the initial negotiation process or even, you know, whether they come to their current boss and they’re asking for that raise. And let’s say that that boss or that manager gives them just a little bit of pushback. What would you recommend we do in that situation?
KL (33:24.878)
I’m a big curiosity person and I want to understand. Help me understand. Okay, so the answer is no. Could you help me peel that back a bit and give me a little more context? And is it a no now or is it a no period?
Is it a no, you don’t see me as a leader? Okay, let’s talk about that from a performance standpoint. What would you, you know, what do you need to see from me? Let’s revisit that. I, if you can understand the context, you’re going to have a much better chance to be able to fill in some of the gaps. If they won’t give you context, then you really have to ask yourself, is this the company that you want to work with?
for your future, right? So it comes down to being just really intentional about what really is important to you. And if you say to them, listen, if they say, no, there’s nothing we can do on salary, okay, well, let’s talk about some of the other things that are also important to me. We just went through that list.
personal development, my growth is really important to me, so is there anything inside the company? And let’s also talk about if growth is important and you agree that I have the opportunity to grow career -wise here.
Mary (34:29.348)
Mm -hmm.
KL (34:42.958)
anyone that you think from a network standpoint that I need to meet any projects that I need to get on. So finding any pockets that you possibly can that are going to help you move forward and then you have to decide whether or not those are enough.
drivers to help keep you excited about being there. And then I would also say, you know, in doing your homework about what your role is worth on the market is important and take every recruiter call. I recognize there’s a lot less recruiters reaching out in today’s market, but any time a recruiter reaches out, take that call so you can see what you’re worth on the market beyond just some of the different salary opportunities you have to research.
Mary (35:02.244)
Yeah.
KL (35:29.902)
Could be a game changer, could be your future job, number one. Number two, getting that range from them would just be, oof, okay, well if they’re calling me about a range that’s so much higher than where I’m at, maybe I do need to start thinking about what’s next for me.
Mary (35:43.524)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah, and you also mentioned that data piece. So what type of data should we be gathering right now so that we are prepared to negotiate?
KL (35:58.03)
Yeah, so there’s a couple of websites. I’ll give you a couple of my favorite. My all -time favorite and the reason why I love it so much is because they pull from different sites and they say where they’re from. It’s on ChatTPT, salary navigator. So I have it saved under my ChatTPT and I just grab it anytime I need it and just like be really clear on the title, the city, the state, the country, as much information as you possibly can about bringing the salary info and they’ll pull it from Glassdoor pay scale.
all the different sources. That’s my favorite one. But I like to play around. I mean, you can just Google salary comparisons and there’s a million different. There’s some that you have to pay for, some that are free, salary navigator on Chatchi BT may not be on the 3 .5 version. It may only be on the 4 .0 version.
but I love that source. And then again, it’s not only that, it’s you’re at a family function or a dinner party, like, hey, I’m putting my feelers out there.
I’d love to know inside your company, what is the director level feel like in terms of staff? Do you have any concept of, you don’t have to ask them what they get paid, but you can ask them if they could help you kind of piece together that story. Or ask them, hey, like I’m trying to change the conversation around salaries and I’m trying to see what other people make so we can all grow and do better. Would you be open to share? I’d love to share with you where I’m at just to see if it fits.
and make sense. So those are some of the ways that you want to get grounded to the facts.
Mary (37:39.236)
Yeah, for sure. And I think that I would add to that, too, you know, from a resume perspective, I always encourage people to keep sort of a brag sheet where they’re writing down their achievements, the impact, any quantification that comes along with that, because then when you are prepared to negotiate, you have this list of look at how awesome I am. I’ve done all of these amazing things and I can prove it.
And then not only does it help you update your resume when the time comes, it also helps with that negotiation aspect, I would imagine.
KL (38:16.11)
What amazing advice, so, so important to document some wins and then also quantify them.
with numbers and when you’re prepping for an interview that becomes super relevant because you’re finding out what their challenges are and then you can pull in well you know I was able to do boom boom boom at this company I could do the same for you that becomes so critical in the interview but also when you’re trying to state your case so I love that you added that thank you
Mary (38:33.956)
Mm -hmm.
Mary (38:49.092)
Yeah. So I’m also curious if you could go back and give yourself three pieces of advice, you know, back in the day when you were negotiating those salaries, what would it be?
KL (39:05.07)
I would have…
KL (39:10.99)
Again, because I didn’t know I could in the early days, that was, I don’t know where I would have figured that out, right? I would say what I wish was that there was more conversation around it and that the people in my life or in my network talked more about it. So I…
I could, a light bulb could come off. And this is actually just why I do so many speaking engagements and community events and podcasts because people need to know this, they need to know that they can. So I wish I did, but that wasn’t something that I would have been able to necessarily personally change. I would say in addition to that, finding my voice and frankly, Mary, this is something that I’ve worked on my whole life.
I still work on it today. And that really is, you know, when you have a seat at the table, is it heard? Am I saying it the right way? Am I worrying about how it might come across? Like, I’m the only woman there, they’re not listening to me. The guy next to me said the exact same thing, and you know, yet he got the credit. Like, what? So I’ve really been thinking about that a lot, and I think if I were to go back and…
do a little bit more work on me and my confidence. That would have without question been a game changer in so many aspects of my career, not just on the negotiation side. And then I would have thought more about creating that win -win environment and like practice like different conversations about it and done a little more homework.
Can you negotiate effectively? To be clear, Mary, we barely had the internet when I started. So we didn’t have the access that we do today. Today there’s just so many resources that are at your fingertips. Of course, you have to piece it all together and working with somebody to help you do that is a big help. But I think I would have done those things. And I think the confidence one would have probably been the biggest game changer.
Mary (41:25.409)
So for our listeners who are getting ready to go into a salary negotiation tomorrow, what are the top three pieces of advice you would give them?
KL (41:39.086)
Okay, well do your homework. First and foremost, we don’t have too much time to get into limiting beliefs and what your relationship is to money, but you can ask yourself that. What’s blocking me or getting in my way? Then do your homework. What is it worth on the market?
What are other roles with similar titles? Sometimes you have to get creative. Where am I at today and what feels good for me? And then practice how to have this conversation and video yourself so you can see what looks right, what feels right, what your body language is doing. And practice, practice, practice how to have that conversation in a really positive and effective way and think about creating that win -win.
Mary (42:20.192)
Love it. What are you up to now and where can we find you on social media?
KL (42:24.462)
So I am linked in.
passion project. It is the most incredible platform I would say for anyone who is seeking their next opportunity. If you’re not actively engaging on LinkedIn, you’re sleeping on this platform that is one of the most powerful sources. And if you’re not writing your own content and creating your own personal brand so people can find you when they’re looking to do some research on you and sharing your thought leadership. So LinkedIn is my number one source.
I post almost daily so anyone who wants to find me on LinkedIn, I’m really, really just super engaged. And I take tons and tons of calls so you can do a discovery call with me for free. And there, and then I would find me on Instagram, find me on TikTok. I’m loving that platform, TikTok. I’m the salary bump everywhere. But Keri-Lynne Shaw on LinkedIn.
Mary (43:23.516)
Awesome, Keri-Lynne, thanks so much for coming on today.
KL (43:26.734)
Thank you for having me, it was great.